LEILA FADEL, HOST:
OK, so as we just heard, Trump wants to designate antifa as a terrorist organization. And that's despite the fact that it is not a centralized, cohesive national organization. And to understand the implications of what this could mean, we have Hina Shamsi on the line. She's director of the American Civil Liberty Union's National Security Project, which is focused on making sure national security policies comply with the Constitution, civil liberties and human rights. Good morning, and thanks for being here.
HINA SHAMSI: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
FADEL: So, Hina, we just heard from our correspondent that there's currently no legal authority to designate a domestic group as a terrorist organization. And antifa I don't even think qualifies as a group necessarily. But could the administration somehow establish legal authority to follow through with this threat to designate antifa?
SHAMSI: Well, I think we're waiting to see what the administration does, but it is very clear that the president does not have authority to designate U.S. groups or individuals as domestic terrorists for very good reason. Congress has refused to pass any such law over many decades because it would raise very serious First Amendment and due process concerns.
FADEL: In what way? How would designating domestic groups infringe on First Amendment rights differently than the way - than a foreign terrorist organization?
SHAMSI: Well, when we talk about designation, we're talking about a variety of consequences that might arise, right? Investigation, surveillance, prosecution. In the foreign context, that also means serious consequences like draconian imposition of financial and other sanctions. And what we have here is exactly what the concern is, which is imposition of those kinds of consequences based on people's beliefs. Let me give you a more sort of specific example. So back in 2001, just a few days after 9/11.
FADEL: Yeah.
SHAMSI: Congress did pass a vague and overbroad definition of domestic terrorism for investigative purposes in the Patriot Act. And we've seen it abused since then by administrations of both parties for unjust surveillance, investigation and prosecution of people the government doesn't like or who dissent against government policies. But here what we have now is President Trump seems determined to one-up his predecessors by targeting real or perceived political opponents based on their constitutionally protected beliefs and speech. And we should all be very clear that if he does that, he is jeopardizing everyone's First Amendment rights.
FADEL: But you're saying legally he can't do that. Is there a way that the law could change? I mean, if it's not legal, what is he getting at then? What is this move really about?
SHAMSI: Well, he similarly made these kinds of threats before, right?
FADEL: Right.
SHAMSI: So he did that in 2020, and it turned out that it wasn't possible to designate antifa back then. I think the concern here is that he's making these threats he's going to order investigations that are based on people's constitutionally protected, groups' constitutionally protected beliefs and speech. And that will jeopardize our rights. And we've got to be able to hold him accountable for that.
FADEL: If the administration can't officially designate domestic groups, which they can't legally, are there consequences then just from the rhetoric of saying we believe this group is a terrorist group?
SHAMSI: Yes, there are. Terrorism is an inherently malleable concept. And this is imposing stigma and suspicion on people who are engaging in their First Amendment protected right to political debate, opposition and dissent.
FADEL: Hina Shamsi is director of the ACLU's National Security Project. Thank you for your time and your insights.
SHAMSI: Thank you.
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